Tuesday past saw our Brian Gilmour once again on his regular place as the property expert on BBC Radio Scotland Call Kaye. This week Stephen Jardine was hosting and callers and texts came in with a variety of questions but first of all the guys talked about energy efficiency…
Stephen: Our property expert, Brian Gilmour of Indigo Square is here so if you’re renting, what are your rights, and all this kind of stuff. Whatever it is around property, we’re here to help.
Brian: Yeah, we certainly are. I’m watching a piece of white tarpaulin, which is just holding on to the scaffolding outside. So is it a time to fix your roof?
Stephen: If your trampoline is in somebody else’s back garden at the moment, is that gonna help you sell? 08085-9295-00. 80295, if you want to text us, this morning. But we’re also gonna look at some of the big property questions around at the moment in the news, and one that caught our eye this morning, council tax bill reductions being recommended by Citizens Advice Scotland for people who have energy efficient homes. So this, if they get their way, could win you a £500 discount on your council tax bill, if you have an energy efficient home.
Brian: Yes, one of the big things that came in, when home reports came in, was the need to have an energy performance certificate at the same time that you sold your home. So the energy performance of people’s homes started to become more relevant, and we’ve got all the various climate issues. Climate change being a big topic-
Stephen: Right now.
Brian: -that we’ve got just now. So all of those factors are reasons for doing things, and as energy costs are going up, making your home as fuel efficient as possible, whether people want it warm or cold, depending on whether it’s the man or the woman, as per coming up, as well. So, there’s all these reasons, and Citizens Advice, they did a survey and found that people were looking for some sort of financial incentive to do it, and they were suggesting through their Council Tax. But I do find that concept interesting.
We’re opening a new office and as part of that, we’ve had an energy audit take place. And this £500 efficiency, I was putting in new lighting in that office, brand new light units across it with LED fitments, cost us about £1,000, and we’ve been told that we will get that money back within two years. So just doing the energy efficiency change ourselves in that office that we are talking about, we are looking at getting this type of money back. So maybe, yes, a discount on your council tax might be an incentive, but maybe people being more aware of how much of a saving they can actually make by doing the changes just now and they’ll still get it in their pocket.
Stephen: Are we starting to see it come through in the property market, or is still very much just a kind of tick box exercise that you’ve got your energy saving certificate, but you’re maybe not really committing to what it actually means?
Brian: I think that’s very much the case, and one of the challenges is, you can give people all the statistics and information they want, if you don’t put it in context, it means nothing. So if I get an energy efficiency rating on a property of D, and I can see the top rating’s A and the bottom rating’s G, D’s middle for diddle. But if you then put that in the context of if that property is a sandstone tenement property and, actually, D’s about the top rating that a sandstone tenement property can get, then if what I’m choosing is a sandstone tenement, because I like the aesthetics of an older property, then D’s fantastic.
But if you don’t give people that context … And maybe that’s why we’re not really seeing people buying and renting based on what the energy efficiency rating is. But there is a big stick coming down the line. In 2019, all rental properties must have a minimum energy efficiency rating of E. So, for landlords out there, there is a big stick coming that they’ve got 18 months to get their rental properties in order, otherwise they just won’t be able to rent them out.
Stephen: And is there a help for landlords? Is there support in terms of grants and things for them to do that?
Brian: Yes, there are. There’s grants and there’s interest free loans. I’ve dealt with landlords who’ve had a brand new heating system put into a property for free, because their tenant … who was on a good long-term lease … their tenant was on benefits, and so that entitled them to free new heating system and new front door. I’ve also had landlords who’ve had interest free loans for things like double glazing. So there are … If you go onto Energy Savings Trust Scotland website you can get a list of the various things that you can get interest free loans and grants for, whether you’re a home owner or a private landlord.
Stephen: I guess we’ve got a lot of older properties in Scotland, and when it comes to them, Brian, there’s maybe some excuse why it’s taking a time to catch up on this stuff, but when it comes to new homes and new builds, there really should be no excuse about this. They should be 100% energy proof, watertight, shouldn’t they?
Brian: They should, and actually, they are. Like on all these things, where we move down one route, you suddenly get a range of experts who tell you something else. There has been one or two studies that have actually commented that new homes are so energy efficient, it might be part of the reason for an increase in child asthma, because they are built and they’ve almost got a polythene cladding around the inside of the house, and so there’s no air movement.
Stephen: Hermetically sealed.
Brian: Correct. But you’re right about the age of our properties, 75% of Scotland’s housing stock is more than 35 years old. So that’s the big challenge for the government, getting our housing stock up to a fuel efficient level.
Stephen: Crikey. I can remember ice on the inside of the windows when I was growing up. That was a long time ago. In terms of what people can do, what are the key things that people should be looking at if they … a bit of DIY time this weekend and they’d like to make their homes more energy efficient. What should they be looking at, Brian?
Brian: Very, very simplest, easiest, even I can do it on a DIY level, is LED light bulbs. You could get LED light bulbs fitted across your home, and £60 worth of LED light bulbs will save you £30 in electricity bills inside six months. You’ll get your money back inside a year for LED light bulbs. That is the simplest, easiest thing to do. Little draught excluders, those sort of brushes you can get at the bottom your door. Those types of things are the easiest quick fixes that you’ll immediately see a return on your investment.
Stephen: And you can also, I guess, maybe think about turning down that thermostat. New research … we’re talking about it in 30 minutes time … suggests a third of couples fall out about the heating, where that thermostat should be set. How does it work in your house, Brian?
Brian: I’m in control of the thermostat.
Stephen: Or maybe you think you are in control.
Brian: Yes. And then I’ll be sitting there in this, and I’m going to get an extra jumper, it’s because she’s turned it down.
Stephen: So does she turn it down? Because that’s … How does it work in your house? Who works it what way?
Brian: Actually, in the house … and this is why I think it’s a bit sexist to go down the female/male route … it actually depends … Sometimes I’m wanting it warmer, sometimes my wife wants it warmer, so it’s a bit mix and match. Definitely at night time, I prefer a nice cosy bed.
Stephen: But it’s always different. That’s interesting. So one of you is always wanting it a different way.
Stephen: You sure you’re really compatible, Brian? No, it’s not that kind of a phone in. It’s property questions for Brian, this morning. Anything that you wanna ask him about renting, about selling. Is it a good time to sell in the run up to Christmas? When is a good time to sell? And if you’re coming to sell your house, what are the ways that you can really market it effectively? Anything like that, 08085-9295-00, 80295 to text us. Brian, you’ll be back just after half past ten, won’t you?
Brian: Exactly. Yeah.
Stephen: We’ll look forward to it. 10:16, Tuesday morning, this is BBC Radio Scotland.
All ready to go, Brian?
Brian: Yep, ready for the calls, texts.
Stephen: Here we go. First one up this morning is James in Clarkston for you. Good morning, James.
Caller: Good morning.
Stephen: What’s your question for Brian?
Caller: Just I want to know how accurate are home reports, and is that sector regulated? Because from experience, it would appear that agents and surveyors seem to work and insist together at the client to set the price for that property.
Brian: Hi, James.
Brian: Is the sector regulated? Well, estate agents are regulated by … most will be members of a property ombudsman, and surveyors are regulated. They’re all members of the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors. Home reports, I’m not a big fan of home reports, myself. I get the sense that neither are you from the tone of your question. I’m not a big fan, actually, and I get your point about they’re being set by the surveyor and estate agency together.
To give some context, one of the issues to do with home reports came out of the really buoyant property markets pre crash, and the politicians decided people were going for properties, they were going at a closing date, seven or eight people offer, seven or eight people have a survey done in the property, and only one person gets it. And only one survey has been valid, yet all this money’s been spent. And people might go for four or five. So if we can have one valuation that everybody relies upon … That concept sounds fine. The challenge with it is in the current market, I know what you’re saying, and it sounds like you feel as though the valuations are being pushed up to suit the seller.
Brian: Actually, my issue with home reports is that home reports are actually putting a cap on property price inflation, because home reports, surveyors, they’ve got a lot of lenders going after them when the market crashed and people were living in negative equity. The default position of lenders is then just to sue the surveyors, and go after the surveyors because the property’s not worth what they said, even though it’s the market conditions that have brought it down. That actually has made surveyors quite conservative.
Also, in order for the surveyors to produce a home report they have to have comparable evidence of previous sales, and the issue with that then is the value of anything is what someone’s prepared to pay for it today, yet the nature of a home report is actually if they’re going by comparable evidence, their setting it based on prices of the past. So in many cases, I would actually argue that home reports are putting the brakes on property price inflation.
I know situations where … the opposite of perhaps what you’ve found … where an estate agent believes that a property can achieve x in the market place, and they’ve gone along, and the surveyor just will not go up to that level because the surveyor can only get comparable evidence, and the comparable evidence is of previous sales.
And then that starts to become a self fulfilling prophecy, because if people in a lot of places can only get … or a lot of circumstances … can only get what they can get as a mortgage on a property, and they don’t have the additional cash to pay over the odds, then the property will sell at what the surveyor has said, which means the next time he goes and values a property, he’ll set it at what he set it at last time, because what he set it at last time was the selling price, and so on and so on. So there are actually a lot of … I take it you’ve had a particular bad experience when you’ve been looking around?
Caller: That, but also from like, I deal with a lot of different people and different agents, as well, but it’s actually more for us based on family members who’ve had their own reports done, and they’ve asked at the time about the value of their property and they’ve been told, “Oh, I’ll let you speak to the agent,” which seems to be quite ironic when you’re paying a surveyor to set the value of your property, and not an estate agent to do that.
Stephen: It should be independent, shouldn’t it?
Brian: It was independent. And there’s plenty of ways for them to go on and get the records. What they might be doing when they say that they’re speaking to an agent, if you go into the Register of Scotland, which is where all inheritable property transactions are recorded, the records there … to give you some context. If I was to sell a property in May, say I sold it middle of May, it might actually have a first week in July date of entry. And then the Register of Scotland takes two or three months to process that paperwork.
So a property coming on and the figures aren’t available until, say, September, actually record what happened in May, in terms of what somebody was actually doing. So sometimes, surveyors will want to speak to agents if it’s been … You’re from Clarkston, so that’s a buoyant market. Clarkston, Mearns and the south side of Glasgow is a strong market. There might be good sales that are coming through, and it might be a misunderstanding of what the surveyor’s actually saying is, “I want to speak to the estate agents to get the most up to date sales that they have managed to achieve,” rather than specifically, “I’ll need to speak to the agent before I set the price.”
Stephen: What’s the deal if a surveyor is asked by different people to give a home report on the same property? Do they get to charge differently, each client, each time?
Brian: The basics of a home report are it’s the seller who creates the report and that’s made available to all purchasers till they cap. So there should be one report on a property.
Stephen: But …
Brian: There are circumstances where … For example, if you’re doing a buy-to-let mortgage, often buy-to-let lenders will then want a different report to the home report. And even some lenders out there will want a second report, a second opinion. My time in estate agencies over the last 25 years, that has sometimes come down to the ethics of the surveyor himself. Where one surveyor will say, “Well, I’ve done the report, so there it is,” and might charge a small admin fee for if they need to produce it on different headed paper for a different lender, but I have also known surveyors who’ve taken the attitude of, “Right, I’ve done that report for that guy. You’re paying me for my advice. I’m gonna give you it again, because that’s my expertise.
Stephen: To take James’ point, that’s one area that could be tightened up and regulated a bit more, couldn’t it?
Brian: Absolutely. That is one area, but they are quite heavily governed by the RICS, surveyors, so they have to be very, very careful. And if you do have any concerns about a surveyor, they will have a complaints process and you can go through that, and the RICS will also be a port of call if you’ve got any concerns.
Stephen: James, thank you so much for your call this morning. You’re listening to our property expert, Brian Gilmore. Any questions that you’ve got for him, if you’re thinking about moving house, if you’re thinking about buying, at the moment, maybe you’re thinking about putting some money into doing up your property, questions for him, 08085-9295-00 or you can text 80295.
Now, we were talking earlier about energy efficiency and plans, potentially, to reward that through a £500 refund on their council tax. David in Newton Mearns has got something to say about all of this. Morning, David.
Caller: Good morning. Lovely day.
Stephen: It depends where you are, I think, this morning. Tell me about your experience of this, because you’ve been quite smart, haven’t you?
Caller: Well, I retired. I already had the land. I’d had the land for 30 years, and had a wee project. So I built an eco house, and the bottom line is the total energy bill is about £1,000 a year, plus the government gives me £500 back through a heating initiative grant.
Stephen: Wow, well done. So when you say an eco house, how have you managed to achieve that? What are the big features about it that make it so eco friendly?
Caller: Insulation. You buy the energy, you keep the energy. It’s as simple as that.
Stephen: Right. Let me ask you one other thing as well, because we’re talking about it in about 10 minutes in the programme. One of the greatest causes of couples falling out, apparently, is arguments about the temperature in the house and who controls the thermostat. How does that work in your house?
Caller: It’s computer controlled.
Stephen: That’s the future, isn’t it?
Caller: This house is the future.
Stephen: Take the human being out of it.
Caller: Every single room has got its own thermostat, which speaks to a computer. You can go to another room if it’s too hot, or you can open up one of the doors. It’s never, ever too cold.
Stephen: But you can’t … computer says, “No.” No point in trying to tell the computer off about this. David, thank you so much for your call this morning. That’s his experience of this. On the text, a question for you this morning.
Kenny, in Aberdeen, “After evaluation, my flat is down nearly 15-20% in Aberdeen. It’s in great condition, too. Should I sell or should I wait? I’m thinking of moving, but need the equity from the sale to be able to do that.”
Brian, what do you think? Aberdeen, tricky property market at the moment.
Brian: Is is a tricky property market. There’s a report that I heard on BBC This Morning talking about England and Wales, and real term property values were down over the last 10 years since the crash. So it’s not peculiar to Aberdeen, the property prices are down. That was real terms down. Aberdeen has had actual price falls. The indications in Aberdeen are that it seems to be levelling out, that downturn. We’ve see the volume of activity in the Aberdeen market is down 53% on where it was 10 years ago, and it’s demand and supply that drives prices. But a lot of the statistics seem to be indicating that that’s sort of levelling off.
So in terms of Kenny, rentals, for example, which were always one of the key drivers in the Aberdeen market, was that the rental market with landlords buying for people based in the oil industry, rental drops have levelled off, as well. So the indicators are that it’s levelling off. If he needs to sell, then you’ve always got to sell at that point. Levelling off then tends to … at the bottom of the trough for a period of time.
There’s no great indication that it’s about to start going back up again. So if he needs to sell just now, sell. Holding on for 12 months or so, it’s probably levelled off so it won’t drop any further, but there’s no great signs that there’s any immediate uplift back up to recover some of those 15-20% losses.
Stephen: And then the factor of interest rates and mortgages. We’ll talk about that in just a second, Brian, with you. If you’ve any questions for our property expert, Brian Gilmore, just give us a call. It might be about when’s a good time for you to move, might be about doing your house up and doing some renovations and getting the value back from that. 08085-9295-00 or text 80295. 10:45, Tuesday morning, this is BBC Radio Scotland.
Stephen: Tuesday morning on BBC Radio Scotland. Same text number, as well, for our weekly property surgery. Brian Gilmore, our property expert, is here to take any calls and any questions for you about any aspect of moving house, or the rental market as well, selling or buying your property. Speculation, Brian, about a potential change in interest rates pre Christmas and how that might impact on mortgages, as well. And we’re starting to see first time buyers taking out much longer mortgages in the market places with 30 plus years, and that’s a change from how things used to be, isn’t it?
Brian: It is, and one of the reasons for that is to help people get onto the property ladder by making the entry level costs reduced. The longer you’ve got to repay a debt, the cheaper your repayments. It’s as simple as that. So that’s one of the reasons for it. Lenders, particularly, like it, because the longer that you owe them a debt, the more interest payments you’ve got to make. So they like it, also.
Stephen: What’s the downside to it?
Brian: The downside that you’ve got a longer period of time. We were encouraged to become homeowners. The right to buy transformation that happened in 1979 was all about the fact that you can own your home, you can get a mortgage on it, you’re not paying a rent for life, eventually, those mortgage payments will stop. Well, if we’re then going to take mortgages that last 35, 40 years, that concept of eventually you’re cost of owning your home will disappear, that’s around for longer, and you’ll just be paying more to the lender, because you’ll have the debt for longer so you’ll be paying an interest rate for longer.
Stephen: It’s very attractive, though, when you’re sitting down there across the desk from someone tapping away at a computer, and you start to ask them about longer and longer terms, and you see the cost to you going down and down and down. It just seems simply more affordable.
Brian: Well, it is, and people always talk about … I’m showing my age here … but when you’re young, you think you’re gonna live forever, and issues, you can push out to the far distance. So if you’re sitting there and you’re suddenly gonna be taking on this rather large financial commitment, then somebody’s saying to you, “The monthly payments associated with that large financial commitment, I can reduce them so that you can still have the holidays you want,” that’s going to appeal to anybody. And the overall lifetime of the debt principle, well, people will deal with that on another day.
Stephen: So, recommendations to someone when they are sitting down to talk about it. What’s the longest term you can actually get a mortgage for?
Brian: Most mortgages are 25 years. That’s the norm. And a very interesting thing, I never understand why mortgages were 25 years until somebody said to me that an estimate was taken that the average lifespan of a house was about 60 years, so somebody just halved it. That was the-
Stephen: That’s how it came about?
Brian: That’s the scientific way as to how it came about, but you’re now seeing property lengths going out to 30, 35 years, and I think there’s some lenders doing 40 year mortgages.
Stephen: And on the question of interest rates, who knows what will happen with the Bank of England before Christmas time. But if there is a change, is this a good time if you are remortgaging at the moment and you’re looking maybe at some quite attractive fixed rate mortgages … who knows? But what would your best guess be on this, if you were making a decision about property and mortgages at the moment?
Brian: I like fixed mortgages, because I’m a prudent person and I just like knowing what my outgoings are going to be for a fixed period of time, so you can budget for that. I can budget for the next two to three years. The challenge comes in if you are that type of person and during that two to three year window … as you say, we don’t know where interest rates are going to go. Brexit will be happening in a year, 18 months time, so we don’t know what impact that will make. The challenge is, if you’re on a nice comfy fixed rate for three years, but during that time interest rates go up quarter of a percent in a month’s time, another quarter percent in two months after that, and suddenly the base rate, during your three year window, has gone up one and a half, two, three percent, and you drop off your fixed rate onto a higher rate, that’s where the challenge comes for people.
Stephen: That’s a shock to the system when that happens, isn’t it?
Stephen: Okay. 08085-9295-00, any questions you’ve got around property for Brian this morning. Next up, Ian’s on the line. Good morning, Ian.
Caller: Hi. Good morning.
Stephen: Morning. What’s your question for Brian?
Caller: We bought a house two years ago, and we went to remortgage this year to pay for an extension. When we went to the Bank of Scotland, they said that the value of the house isn’t worth what we bought it for. So like your caller was saying there, we went for a fixed term to make sure that we could budget for the outgoings. So what’s the best option to go for? Do we remortgage for another two years, or do we go with a variable?
Stephen: Are you a gambling man, Ian?
Stephen: No. Well, that maybe answers the question. Brian, what do you think?
Brian: Yeah, Ian, you sound like me. There’s a lot of benefit going into a fixed rate. As Stephen says, if you’re a gambling man … Most predictions are not that there will be a large amount of interest rate rises. What we’ve actually got, the reason for the interest rate rises is consumer debt levels, nothing to do with the property market, nothing to do with wages, it’s the fact that our consumer debt levels have gone up, and that’s why they’re talking about a rate rise. There is not great expectation in the City of London that interest rate rises are going to continue to go up for a concerted period of time.
So if you were a wee bit of a gambler, dropping onto a variable rate or having some sort of tracker mortgage that tracks the base rate, might be something to look at. We are in unprecedented territory of interest rates being at a 325-year low. If they go up by quarter of a percent, they’re only returning to where they were two years ago, which, up until the quarter of a percent drop, was a 325-year low. So we are in a period of exceptionally low interest rates. It will take a while of a number of rate rises before they even get to one-and-a-quarter, one-and-a-half percent. And on a typical mortgage, a quarter percent rate rise is about £12 a month.
Stephen: I can remember 15%, 16%, a long time ago. For Ian, when he’s at the end of a product, is it always best to start that conversation with your existing mortgage provider about what they’ve got, or should you just get out there and shop around?
Brian: I would go to the whole marketplace to shop around. Things change all the time as to what’s out there. Ian’s biggest challenge is, the point he made, about the value of his property has fallen, and so shopping around will be a challenge, because if you want to change lender you effectively have to buy out your existing lender. So he might not be able to get the same rate. And what Ian talked about there was he was looking to remortgage to see if he can do some work in the home. That seems to be out of the question.
So if what you’re saying, Ian, is what you’re possibly looking to do is drop onto a new rate, in the hope that during the next wee while your property price goes up, that gives you more freedom, then the most important thing to look for is actually a mortgage rate that gives you the least amount of tie-ins. So that if you are keeping an eye on the local market, use the well known websites that are out there for having an eye on what property prices are doing, and if you start to see property price inflation in your area, then you can move out of that quicker to then be able to raise the capital you’re looking to raise to do the extension
Caller: As regards to that valuation, we are probably one of the latest people to buy a house in this area. So the other residents who’ve been here for 10, 20, 30 years plus, the value of their house is online as way below what ours is. We’ve moved in, we’ve renovated and gutted the entire house, and yet the Bank of Scotland’s saying that you take the value on the postcode.
Brian: That’s the other thing to bear in mind, as well. What they are doing is they are just, for want of a better way of wording it, it’s just an algorithm they’re just going on and saying, “That’s what the blanket property value is.” It might be worthwhile picking up the phone to a locally based surveyor. Have a conversation with the bank, see if they will take a new valuation. Have a word with the surveyor.
If you’ve done work to your home and you’ve kept the receipts for the work that’s done, and you bought it at a higher price, this gets back to the comparable evidence point I was making before, the surveyors can only go on what comparable evidence they’ve got. The bank is not going … they’re just going on what’s the last sales that have happened.
You speak to a surveyor, a surveyor might easily push the value up, and that would then open up the marketplace to you that you can then look at other lenders. I would pick up the phone to a surveyor, a local surveyor, and have a chat with him about whether he thinks it’s a possibility of surveyors being able to justify a higher value on your home.
Stephen: Ian, I really hope that works out for you.
Caller: Thank you.
Stephen: Tricky situation to be in. And Rab in Edinburgh, here’s an unusual one for you. He’s got £50,000 to spend, he says. Lucky him. He says, “Any information on residential caravans, holiday caravans or canal boats, even, as a good investment?”
Brian: Yes. There are specialist financial advisors in those things. Caravan parks themselves have had a new lease of life as people are looking more to short family breaks of … We’re in the October week for many of the schools this week, and there’ll be a lot of people just going away for two, three, four days, and people are more likely to go away to caravans. So in terms of an investment that you can use as your own holiday home and also for people to use … We also … I think we don’t take advantage of our canal system that we’ve got here in Scotland. You go down to parts of the south east of England, and the canal boat culture’s really strong down there. You go down to London, there’s people living in canal boats. I think we are quite a wee bit away from doing that, but certainly caravans strong with the holiday market of two, three, four days, local breaks.
Stephen: I think that’s a good investment, we’re being told there, Rab. But reading between the lines there, a canal boat, that’s the future, I think, for us all, given this rain, anyway. That’s for sure. 80295 to text us your question this morning, 08085-9295-00 to give us a call. Bill’s done that. He’s in Banchory. Morning, Bill.
Caller: Excuse me.
Stephen: That’s okay.
Caller: Good morning to yourself.
Stephen: Good morning.
Caller: I’m just standing outside.
Stephen: What’s your question?
Caller: Basically it’s, I’m now 70, happily, and I’m wondering about the duration of a pension based income beyond that age. I’m looking at possibly, I’m told, a maximum of 10 years, and the snag is that with a short period, you need a larger than normal … i.e. 10% won’t be enough, I’m told, from one source, Which, actually. So I’d value your expertize in Scotland.
Stephen: Right, Brian. Over to you.
Brian: So you’re talking about using your pension income to acquire a property?
Stephen: Yeah. I’ve got two properties in the past, but that’s behind me. And I’m reduced to a more modest income, shall we say.
Brian: There are mortgages out there. There are mortgage products which are called lifetime mortgages, which you might be able to look at. Which basically, it’s the value of the asset when you come to pass away, and you don’t make any payments during the lifetime. Issue with that is, your interest gets rolled up, and it can then leave something. But they are very heavily regulated. So if you find those lifetime mortgages, make they’re FC regulated and they will be a good form of investment.
Stephen: Bill, I hope that helps. Brian, it’s been a packed one this morning. Thank you so much for your time. Lots more on the texts, but we’ll keep them maybe for you for next time. Appreciate your time. Nice to see you. Thank you very much indeed.